Josh, again

You may have read about Josh Waitzkin in this blog or elsewhere. I've mentioned his book, The Art of Learning, as a must-read. Dr. Rowe came across this and sent it. Just when you thought you'd seen everything, here's a group that blends of music, chess and martial arts.

The Hip-Hop Chess Federation Blog
The (HHCF)is the worlds first non-profit fusing music, chess and martial
arts to promote unity, strategy and non-violence. The HHCF hosts celebrity
chess benefits where underserved youth play chess for educational
scholarships and engage cultural icons from various backgrounds. By blending
logic and art we pave new paths to greatness for American youth.
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HHCF EXCLUSIVE: Adisa Banjoko interviews Josh Waitzkin on Martial Arts

At six years old, Josh Waitzkin was one of the toughest chess players on
earth. His creative and aggressive style made him one of the most feared
American chess players ever. His style was a fusion of his years being
raised by chess hustlers in New York's Washington Square Park and his
classical guidance under Bruce Pandolfini. His early life was made into the
cult classic film Searching For Bobby Fischer.After leaving chess, he discovered the martial art of Tai Chi Chuan. After training in Tai Chi Chuan, he realized how much marital arts and chess are connected. On his path to becoming a two-time world champion in Tai Chi Chuan, he learned about Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He wrote a book about his experience entitled The Art of Learning. It became a best seller and is used by CEO's and fighters alike who seek a higher level of understanding.

I first met Josh at the second Hip-Hop Chess Federation event with the RZA
from the Wu-Tang Clan. I remember how well he and RZA connected like old
friends from the second they met. Josh is a living hieroglyph of the idea
that chess and martial arts are one.In this interview Josh Waitzkin talks about his path to learning Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, the relationship between chess and martial arts and his philosophy about the lack of philosophy in BJJ.

OTM: How were you first introduced to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and when did you
begin training?
JW: I began training BJJ out in LA with John Machado about 5 years ago. But
for the first two years, 90% of my energy was focused on stand up, getting
ready for the 2004 Tai Chi Chuan Push Hands Worlds. For the past three years
I've been focused exclusively on Jiu Jitsu, with John out west, then in New
York City at NYBJJ with Marcos Santos. I also worked a lot with Marcelo
Garcia while he was in New York, which was incredible.
OTM: You are a two time world champion in Tai Chi Chuan. Many BJJ
practitioners write off styles like Tai Chi. Why do you think that is?
JW: I was fortunate enough to be introduced to Tai Chi Chuan by William CC
Chen, who is humble, understated, very practical, a true master of body
mechanics, and a fabulous teacher. He is well into his seventies and is
still a demon in the boxing ring. If grapplers were exposed to William Chen's
Tai Chi, they wouldn't write it off.But to answer your question-honestly, a very large percentage of Tai Chi practitioners have their heads in the clouds.and they are the ones who make the most noise, stage the silly fake demonstrations, and create a cultish mindset that a practical fighter can just walk right through. I'd write them off too. Plus the system has little groundwork and most teachers are still closed minded about that element of the martial arts. Frankly, I think this
problem is rampant in many traditional martial arts-teachers are terrified
of looking bad and losing students so they create a world that denies what
they don't know.On the other hand, if you travel to Taiwan and China and focus on the top competitors, the Tai Chi scene becomes incredibly dynamic. The rules of
International Push Hands comptition are that you are in an 18 foot diameter
ring and points are scored for throwing the guy on the floor or out of the
ring. No frills. The fighters are superb athletes, training 6 and 8 hours a
day since childhood, competing all the time. There is no fancy esoteric
language-they just smash you on the floor with a speed and power that is
breathtaking. They are open-minded, incredibly subtle, and of a very similar
spirit to the top BJJ fighters.The chess world made me practical, so I always challenged and rejected the elements of the Tai Chi scene that were overly idealized. If someone told me they could throw me without touching me, I asked them to do it. If they said they could kill me with a touch, I said I'd be willing to take the risk. This led to some pretty funny scenes and was an easy way to filter out the nonsense.
OTM: What benefits from Tai Chi do you bring to BJJ and vice versa?
JW: Well, the learning process begins from different places but arrives,
ideally, at a similar feeling. In BJJ, you tend to begin with technique, and
through repetition you come to a smooth, efficient, unobstructed body
mechanics. In Tai Chi, you begin with body mechanics, get a certain internal
feeling over months and years of moving meditative practice, and then you
learn the martial application of what you've been doing all along.The essence of Tai Chi is sensitivity to intention. Turning force against itself, overcoming power without meeting it head on. Of course these principles are at the heart Jiu Jitsu as well. In my mind, the arts are completely intertwined and to be honest, the purest Tai Chi I've ever felt has been getting my ass handed to me, over and over, by John Machado and Marcelo Garcia.
OTM: Your book The Art of Learning talks about your journey from chess to
Tai Chi and BJJ. What would you say are the core similarities between chess
and martial arts?
JW: People tend to answer that question with clichés. They talk about the
need to think ahead, to combine strategy and tactics--those parallels are
critical but obvious. To my mind, the interesting connections reside in the
learning process. Both chess and the martial arts involve internalizing
tremendously complex information into a sense of flow-I call this the study
of numbers to leave numbers, or form to leave form. I love the play between
the conscious and unconscious minds in the creative moment, and for me chess
and the martial arts are both about developing a rich working relationship
with your intuition. We are forced to be relentlessly introspective, to take
on our weaknesses and build games around our specific nuances of character.
If I learned anything from my life of competition in chess and Push Hands,
it's that if you've swept anything under the rug in your learning process-if
you haven't taken yourself on truly and deeply-it'll come out and destroy
you when the pressure is on.In his translation of The Vimalakirti Sutra, Robert Thurman defines wisdom as "tolerance of cognitive dissonance." That is chess and that is the martial arts. We are learning to cultivate a peace of mind, clarity of
expression, and unstoppable growth curve in the most chaotic, wildly
complex, and dangerous situations imaginable.
OTM: What rank do you currently hold in BJJ and who do you train under
currently?
JW: I train under Marcos Santos in NYC and have been a purple belt for a
couple years.
OTM: What is your ultimate goal in BJJ?
JW: I'm just a beginner in this art, but it's my dream to win Mundials. I
have a long way to go, but I'm committed.
OTM: Who are some of your favorite BJJ and MMA fighters today?
JW: Hands down my favorite BJJ fighter is Marcelo Garcia. The dude is
amazing. Pure flow. He's very similar to Tiger Woods in that he doesn't
hesitate to break down his game at the top, when it seems absolutely
unnecessary. There's a certain unstoppable mindset in his approach to
learning. I also love how he hones in on one or two techniques and makes
them manifest everywhere-this idea, of learning the macro through the micro,
is at the core of my approach to everything. Most recently for Marcelo it
was the omoplata and crucifix. He was catching his students in those two
submissions from every conceivable position, and this was while his X-guard
and back game looked unbeatable. Everyone prepped for the back attack and
then he blew his weight class out of the water in Abu Dhabi with a brand new
game. I can't wait to see what he comes up with in MMA.As for MMA fighters, all politics aside, I think Randy Couture's mental understanding is off the charts, and Anderson Silva is the scariest dude out there.
OTM: What is your training regimen like these days?
JW: I train BJJ six days a week, twice a couple of those days if possible.
My book has made things in my life more chaotic than I'd like and when I
travel I inevitably miss some days. I'm trying to minimize that as much as
possible.
OTM: Do you still practice Tai Chi?
JW: Internally, yes. Chess and Tai Chi are at the core of everything I do.
OTM: In the HHCF Chess Kings Invitational, RZA spoke about how Chessmaster
10 and getting coaching from you gave him a true edge in the tournament. Can
you talk about what you taught him that enhanced his playing?
JW: RZA is an incredible man. He has a deep wisdom, and we have very similar
approaches to creativity. He's a very strong chess player, but he didn't
have a solid classical foundation. I suggested that he study the endgame.
Instead of memorizing opening traps, I suggested he dive into the principles
that govern all chess positions. That's how I teach through
Chessmaster-connecting chess to life-and maybe that approach helped
translate his musical genius to the 64 squares. With a guy like RZA, who is
a tremendously high level thinker, all you have to do is figure out how to
open the floodgates so his understanding of Quality can transfer over. These
arts are all the same, really. We just need to break down the walls in our
minds.
OTM: What was your favorite memory from the HHCF Kings Invitational?
JW: Dude, the HHCF events have been amazing..I think the panel discussions
with you, me, RZA, Rakaa, Qbert, and Kevvy Kev have been very dynamic.
Bringing together role models from all these different disciplines to
discuss the road to mastery is a brilliant way to inspire kids who might not
otherwise be exposed to all the connections.As for specific moments, two come to mind. Last event, it actually happened behind the scenes. RZA and I were waiting to go up for the panel, and we got into this intense conversation about creativity, going back and forth, discussing these wild connections between chess, hip hop, and the martial arts. We were speaking about improvisation, the role between the technical foundation and the creative leap, about where all these arts collide. I came out of the conversation on fire with new ideas-I wish others could have
heard it.The other moment happened on the street after our event at The Omega Boys
Club. A young rapper approached RZA, Monk, and Reverend with a challenging
vibe. He started freestyling and then a cipher broke out, with the Wu Tang
crew blowing this guy out of the water. It all came to a head when RZA
brought the house down with probably the most amazing improvised performance
in anything that I've even seen. It was flat out awesome. After he was done,
and without missing a beat, he said "Josh GO!" It was my turn. I laughed. I
know when to keep my mouth shut.
OTM: What are the practical fighting limitations of tai chi?
JW: I think that depends on how literal you're being. If you come from my
perspective, in which I rebound away from traditionalism and don't care much
for labels, Tai Chi is in everything just as chess and Jiu Jitsu are in
everything. The boundaries are very porous. From a slightly less
irritatingly abstract perspective, the Tai Chi system, if cultivated in a no
nonsense manner, can be quite powerful as a striking and throwing art.
Despite what some might say, the ground element of the game is not terribly
developed--and that's a big limitation.
OTM: What are the spiritual/internal limitations of brazilian jiu jitsu?
JW: I don't have any reason to believe that there are any.
OTM: Not any? I find this hard to conceive. Looking back into antiquity, the
philosophies of Lao Tzu, Buddha, Jigoro Kano and even more recently Bruce
Lee, gave each of the respective martial paths a sketch of spiritual
structure. These sketches served as a loose road map to one's true self.
When I look at Rickson Gracie for example, the main thing I see that
separates him from the rest of the jiu jitsu practitioners in the world is
his philosophical approach to fighting. Many of his interviews highlight his
respect for the traditional philosophical approaches of the past.In America at least, there does not seem to be a philosophical methodology to Brazilian jiu jitsu. I have always felt this has created a vacuum of sorts that makes jiu jitsu more of a supremely effective fighting style- but not a martial art.Do you agree? Also, could the absence of the philosophy in Brazilian jiu jitsu serve as the direct link to the blueprint of the essence of martial arts?
JW: That last point is deep, man. Alright, this is how I feel. I'm a student
of philosophy and engage that element of my being in everything I do. As
individuals, we have the choice to go down this road or not. I think the
vast majority of people, in all disciplines, tend not to. You asked if there
were any spiritual/internal limitations to BJJ. My feeling is that BJJ is a
beautiful martial art that can take an individual as far as he or she is
prepared to go.I don't think that BJJ imposes any limitations-some practitioners might, but the art itself does not. I've met plenty of meat heads in the Jiu Jitsu
world, but I've also known them in chess, tai chi, academia, science,
religion.we can screw anything up. And there is no easy answer. If there is
too much of a spiritual structure in an art, we may become dogmatic and not
take responsibility for our beliefs. If too little, we can fail to even
consider the critical questions.I think there are countless paths to spirituality--meditation, surfing, running, climbing, music, sailing, archery, calligraphy, chess, martial arts, motorcycle maintenance, whatever. The vehicle is just the husk. It is
a structure, a form, a channel to be penetrated with an understanding of its
relativity. In my opinion, what matters isn't so much what art you pursue
but how honestly, creatively and relentlessly you explore it. You brought up
Lao Tzu, Buddha, and Bruce Lee. These were all sages who spoke about leaving
form behind. Religious followers and devotees later took their ideas and
made them much more static than they were ever intended to be. And that
brings us to your last point which is very powerful.
OTM: Any last words?
JW: Yeah, one thing. I'm in the process of opening up a nonprofit
foundation, designed to help disadvantaged children, teens, and young adults
get their footing in the learning process. If anyone reading this works in
this field and believes the educational philosophy of my book The Art of
Learning can make an impact on their group, please contact me on my website
www.joshwaitzkin.com and I'll do my best to help out by donating copies to
teachers, families, and students. It's been a pleasure, man.

ORIGINAL LINK:
http://www.onthemat.com/articles/Josh_Waitzkin_Interview_01_25_2008.html